Statements by U.S. Officials

Ambassador Richard Jones Senior Advisor to the Secretary and Coordinator for Iraq Interview with Hürriyet

April 19, 2005

Q: Well, welcome to Istanbul. Why did you come? It is not good to start with this question, but actually…

Ambassador Jones: I am here to consult with your government on Iraq policy. I’ve recently been named, at least for a short term, to be Secretary Rice’s senior advisor and coordinator for Iraq policy. And I was in Baghdad a week before last. Actually, I was also there last week. And, in between, I made a trip of the southern neighbors. And I am here to complete my…

Q: The southern neighbors of Europe?

Ambassador Jones: The southern neighbors of Iraq. I met with Kuwaitis, Saudis and Jordanians. And now I am here to consult with one of the northern neighbors of Iraq and basically to brief your government on my conversations with the leadership of the Iraqi transitional government that has been announced: the members of the Presidency Council, the prime minister-designate, the Speaker of the Transitional National Assembly, to brief them on my assessment of the government of Iraq, to hear their concerns and to exchange information and views.

Q: Can you say that with you now we will see a difference in the United States position in the region?

Ambassador Jones: Well, I wouldn’t say that I am going to make a big difference in the United States policy, because United States policy is motivated by our assessment of our national interest as any country’s policy is. And that doesn’t change just because you have a new person involved. But I do hope that having someone like myself will allow us to have more intensive consultations with the Iraqis and with our friends in the region.

Q: Now you’re saying this because your style…

 

Ambassador Jones: I am a senior State Department official whose sole job is Iraq. Up until now, there hasn’t been a person at my level who was focused just on Iraq. We have had senior people who obviously are informed on Iraq. But they are not focusing completely on Iraq. All the people who were focusing completely on Iraq were at a lower level. When Secretary Rice came into office she decided that she wanted a more senior person who would look at Iraq all the time, and she asked me to do it for a certain period.

Q: I’ve prepared some questions because we have had a lot of experiences together over the last two years. I will start with recent developments. After the election of the president, I am now hearing there are discussions between the Iraqi people regarding the new constitution. As we know, the Kurds, everybody, wants a federation in general. But there is difference of understanding as to what a federation is. The Kurds, as you know, want a federation based on ethnic divisions and the Shiite, they would like a federation based on geographic divisions. What will be your position on this discussion?

Ambassador Jones: Well, the transitional administrative law allows the formation of regional governments. But the regional governments are on the basis of geography. The existing provinces of Iraq, of which there are 18, are allowed to come together to form regional blocks. And of course in the case of the Kurdistan Regional Government it was pre- existing because of the circumstances after the Gulf War and Operation Northern Watch, with which you are obviously very familiar. And it had come into being. But the way the issue was treated in the transitional administrative law allowed any three provinces --- a minimum of three provinces --- to come together to form regional governments. But that is clearly on a geographic basis. Now, the transitional law only governs the transitional period. This issue presumably will be addressed in the constitution. But it will be up to the Iraqis who draft the constitution, which is the National Assembly actually, to decide whether or not they even want to allow the concept of these regional governments in the constitution. Now, because the negotiations in the formation of the transitional law led to this, it is logical to assume that there will be some treatment in the constitution. And we will see what the Iraqis decide because it has to be an Iraqi decision. It has to be a decision not only of the members of the National Assembly but of the Iraqi people. Because the constitution has to stand for ratification after it is approved by the National Assembly. Your guess is as good as mine. But, my presumption would be, and we have heard this from Iraqis, that the principles in the transitional law will be the starting point for the debate on the constitution on this issue, I don’t think we will intervene necessarily on such an issue. In fact, I doubt we will. You can see that we haven’t intervened in the formation of the transitional government.

Q: According to your position, your government’s position, what do you think about the Kirkuk issue? How should it be solved? What is your proposal?

Ambassador Jones: This is an issue that was treated in the transitional law, and there are at least two articles that mention the Kirkuk issue. I think it is article 53 that says that during the transitional period neither Kirkuk nor Baghdad will be allowed to be a member of one of these regional governments. And then article 58 makes it clear that the final status will only be decided after there is a constitution. So again this will be an issue that will be dealt with in the constitutional process. And it will be something that all Iraqis will have to agree on because the constitution will have to be approved. And there is of course the provision in the constitution --- the famous article 61 --- which allows any three provinces if they strongly, in other words by two-thirds majority, oppose the constitution then the constitution will not go into effect. So obviously, if any three provinces, and they don’t even have to be in the same region, you could have a northern province, central and a southern province decide they didn’t like it. So I think is clear that the constitution will have to be acceptable to the vast majority of Iraqis. And that means that key provisions such as Kirkuk will have to acceptable to all of the members. So I think that we are likely to see this issue be continued until after the constitution, just because of what the transitional law says.

Q: And are you preparing yourself for a conflict? Because they…

Ambassador Jones: Well, I mean, we are looking at this issue. There are a number of things that perhaps could be done to reduce tensions, such as they exist. One, of course, is the Iraqi Property Claims Commission. The IPCC, as we call it, was created during the period of the Coalition Provisional Authority to review claims for compensation property. Property claims. And it can review claims from all over Iraq. It doesn’t have to just be in one area or another. But obviously a lot of the claims will relate to the forced displacements that took place in the south, but also in the Kirkuk area, that were part of Saddam’s effort to Arabize that area. And the IPCC was established in the CPA period. It has done a lot of work. It has prepared the claims process; claims forms have been distributed; in fact, literally tens of thousands of claims have been received from all over the country. And they are in the process of trying to adjudicate claims and I think about two thousand claims have actually already been settled. But those are claims that don’t require financial compensation. Perhaps they involve uncontested claims, or claims where you can do a property swap easily. But they don’t involve monetary compensation, because as of yet there is no budget for that. And that is an issue that the United States is interested in, is trying to get funding for the IPCC, so that it can resolve a lot of these property claims. There is another issue that dates from the CPA era: the status of the Kirkuk Foundation. Again this was an institution that was created under CPA, to promote development projects in the Kirkuk area, for the benefit of all the citizens of Kirkuk. All the inhabitants. And we are interested in seeing that that foundation is funded properly.

Q: Before the elections there were displacements made by the Kurdish authority in northern Iraq.

Ambassador Jones: Well, we saw reports of Kurds moving into the area. There have been displacements in several provinces, not just in the Kirkuk area. This is something we were aware of during my time in CPA. And we were primarily focused on doing what we could to care for the humanitarian needs of those who were displaced. And again, people displaced through that process can avail themselves of the IPCC process.

Q: There were claims from the two communities in the region that this displacement of the Kurdish people back to Kirkuk is changing the balance of power in the city, allowing the city to be a Kurdish city in the future.

Ambassador Jones: Well, I mean, as in any situation there are two sides to a story. And if you talk to others they say that these were people that were displaced who are just returning to their homes. I think that the truth is that… I should say that both sides have a certain amount of truth in their claims. That they probably are many people who returned who were formerly displaced and they’re returning to their homes. And there are also probably some efforts to tip the demographic balance. I don’t know where the balance lies. I mean that is impossible for us to sort out. But I think that the important thing to bear in mind is that, as I said earlier, that any final solution to the Kirkuk issue will have to be acceptable to all Iraqis. And it will be worked out. I think a process will probably be developed in the constitutional process. And than then process will probably be implemented at some time in the future. And we are trying to take the steps we can to make sure that all people are treated fairly, to the extent we can, but it is an Iraqi issue that the Iraqis have to work out.

Q: Before the elections -- actually you will know very well -- we had in Turkey this understanding of the situation: that because Americans needed Kurds so they are for Kurdish rights and they are now ignoring the rights of all. The primary issue for the American administration in the region is not to loose the Kurdish support. That is why these…

Ambassador Jones: No, I think that is a mischaracterization of our policy. Our policy is: we are very strongly committed to the territorial integrity of Iraq. We are committed to democracy for Iraq. We are committed to geographic federalism. We are not playing ethnic politics. We have close relations with all the communities in Iraq. And we are not trying to play favorites of one over the other. And I think a lot of progress is being made in Iraq. The elections at the end of January, I think, were a tremendous step forward. I think they showed quite clearly the weight of many of the communities. It is unfortunate that some communities chose not to participate, or others were perhaps intimidated into not participating. But many of the communities of Iraq did turn out in great numbers. And I think that was very helpful. And I think that this will continue or will contribute to the continuation of the maturation of Iraqi democracy and that this will help ensure the stability of the country and that it will help it hold together.

Q: And you visited… You talked with the Turkish ministers you said the…

Ambassador Jones: I haven’t actually had my meetings with your government yet; I meet with them later.

Q: And we had a very difficult, critical period regarding Turkish-American relations. Now where are we? Because everybody is asking this question. Are these misunderstandings over? Can you talk about a new period where the dialogue is going to be refreshed? Because the main issue is the Iraqi policy, certainly.

Ambassador Jones: My focus is Iraqi policy. And obviously I am going to work with all the neighbors of Iraq as closely as I can.

Question: And what would you like from Turkey?

Ambassador Jones: I think Turkey has a big contribution to make in the stabilization of Iraq. I think you are making a good contribution economically. A lot of trade is traveling through the borders, in fact so much so that unfortunately there are lot of delays at the border because of the volume of traffic. My understanding your trade increased to maybe two billion dollars in the last year or so.

Q: Very dangerous trade.

Ambassador Jones: Well, it is advantageous to the people who are conducting it. And I hope that that is having a positive impact on your economy. I mean obviously in the long run we want Turkey to have close relations with Iraq. We want Iraq to have friendly relations with all of its neighbors. We want Iraq to be a source of stability in the region. We certainly don’t want it be a source of instability or a threat to any of its neighbors. And we make this very clear to the Iraqis in our conversations with them. And at the same time we look to the neighbors to support this stabilization and the growth of democracy in the country. There are many ways that they can do that. I mean maintaining a good security on their borders, of course, is one. Non-interference in internal affairs of Iraq is another. Having good economic ties is certainly very positive. And developing a relationship with the entire country, not focusing on one particular region or one particular community within the country I think is also important. I think recognizing Iraq is a homogeneous country that is it going to maintain its territorial integrity. It is a country that has got many communities and they all together make up the body politic and the government of the country. We want all of the neighbors to view Iraq as a unified country.

Q: It’s up to Iraq’s first. They have to unify and they have to give the sense of unity.

Ambassador Jones: And I think you are seeing that. I think it is very interesting that many of the lists did cross ethnic bounds. And I think that what you are seeing now in the formation ITG is a very interesting negotiation. You are seeing alliances formed and shaped, but the important thing is that all of the communities of Iraq are participating in the formation of the ITG. Even those communities that didn’t necessarily participate at the same level in the elections are now very interested in the formation of the government and are trying to gain representation in the government. And that is one of the reasons why it has taken so long. Because you have a situation where the lists that won votes in the election understandably want to see their political strength reflected in the government. But at the same time they understand the importance of reaching out and embracing those communities that didn’t participate in the elections, that in many cases now regret that they didn’t. And so you know they are offering these communities a seat at the table, but to expect them to offer some of the more powerful seats would be difficult for a political party or list; to just cede the power that it feels it’s won at the ballot box without a very tough negotiation. And that is going on and that is why it has taken so long. My understanding is that in terms of the negotiations between the prominent lists that you have all heard of that those negotiations are pretty much finished and the negotiations now are with some of the smaller lists in some of the communities that didn’t participate as actively in the elections for one reason or another.

Q: You said what you await from the Turkish government. Now I will turn back to my previous question. As far as I understand you await collaboration on the Iraqi issue from the Turkish government. And is the time ripe enough to make this collaboration? I mean all the problems are they over with the Turkish government and the United States? Because we had Mr. Rumsfeld’s explanations especially on the Turkish position on northern Iraq. He said that he put the blame on the Turkish position of not opening the borders to the American soldiers from the north. And then he softened his tone, but starting from that point there have been are a lot of misunderstandings. Are we over it now?

Ambassador Jones: One of my jobs is to try to help avoid misunderstanding, to try to improve communication. And that is what I try to do. Before I took this job I served in the Coalition for Provisional Authority for 7.5 months. And during that time, one of the things I did was come to Ankara and consult with your government at that time. And I think that my visit helped to clear the air. I hope it helped to clear up misconceptions about what CPA’s policy was at the time. And that is what I do.

Q: The Incirlik question has been a great issue in Turkey. It has been politicized too much and there was lots of gossip. And nobody understood what was happening there. What was your demand for Incirlik? And I noticed that Mr. Ambassador made a declaration, he said to solve the question on the basis of the defense corporation agreement between the two countries and the Turkish government position is different. They wanted a solution on the basis of a United Nations article. What is this? I didn’t understand this detail. I asked everybody and nobody could give an answer on this issue.

Ambassador Jones: I don’t have anything to add on that particular issue. That is certainly not in my portfolio.

Q: OK, I understand. About PKK. It is an Iraqi issue. In Iraq there are terrorist organizations that is against Turkey. And what is the situation now Iraq regarding PKK? Are they still living there? As far as I know, they have parties, they have offices there. How can you stand such an organization?

Ambassador Jones: First of all, I think you are probably well aware that the United States has been very firm on the issue of the PKK. I think we have been the strongest supporter in the international community in supporting Turkey’s efforts to defeat the PKK. We have long declared it a terrorist organization from our own perspective. We have worked with the Europeans to make sure that they also consider it a terrorist organization. We certainly have been supportive of Turkey’s efforts to apprehend PKK members around the world. And I am proud of the cooperation we have in the area, in combating this terrorist group.

As you point out, there are reports of PKK activity in Iraq today. Most of those reports involve areas of Iraq that quite honestly are very remote, and are not areas where we have a presence. And I don’t think they are areas where particularly the Iraqi security forces have a presence. So they are in very remote areas in the country. So it is very difficult to judge the accuracy of the reports. And it is also very difficult to do anything about them. Because, quite honestly, given the current security environment in Iraq, the focus of the Coalition Forces and the focus of Iraqi security forces is on providing security to the Iraqi people. And people that are in remote areas are in remote areas. And our forces are more concentrated in the populated areas.

Q: I am not talking about defense coordination or military intervention to the issue. But politically I am asking. Because…

Ambassador Jones: Politically, this is an issue that we know is of concern to Turkey, to the Turkish people, to the government. And we certainly even in the CPA days had a dialogue with Iraqi authorities on this issue and with various political leaders in Iraq. And they know our position. And many Iraqis share Turkey’s concerns for the PKK and for their front organizations. And certainly where we know that there are activities, when they are in areas where we have forces, we do what we can to discourage those activities. Whether they be political or any other.

Q: We do what we can to discourage such activities.

 

Ambassador Jones: Yes, where we have information and where we have the… I mentioned we have contacts with the Iraqi government. There was a trilateral discussion that was in January before the elections. And that trilateral process was begun. Of course right now we are in an interregnum period, and I think Secretary Rice when she visited referred to this fact. It is certainly our intention to reinvigorate, to activate, this trilateral process once the new government is formed.

Q: I have heard news recently that the mountain Kandil was being evacuated by the Americans. The PKK terrorist they are based on Kandil mountain in northern Iraq. And they have a camp here. The news said it was being evacuated. And they are being sent to Turkey.

 

Ambassador Jones: By whom?

Q: I mean. They are being evacuated . Go away where you want, it has been said.

Ambassador Jones: I don’t have such information.

Q: And regarding multilateralism. Now can we talk about a shift in the United States policy regarding Iraq on this issue? I mean, from now on, are you going to look for more alliances, for more cooperation in Iraq?

Ambassador Jones: From the beginning this has been a cooperative effort. I mean don’t forget that the United States worked very hard with the United Nations. We have a series of UN resolutions. I mean the very presence of the multi-national forces and their activities in Iraq are currently on the basis of UN Security Council Resolution 1546. We have taken a multilateral force and the coalition, from the beginning, has been more than two dozen countries. And of course even beyond the military coalition there is now, I think, a growing appreciation particularly after the elections, of the need for international involvement to help support Iraqi democracy. And we are very pleased, of course, with the Madrid conference that led to significant pledges of assistance. There is a lot of follow-up work has been done. I think there have been three follow-up conferences to Madrid. The fourth conference on assistance will be held in Amman, Jordan, probably in late June or July. There will be a U.S. – European Union hosted conference on behalf of Iraq, if the new Iraqi government is interested in this. This was announced publicly during President Bush’s visit to Europe recently. The United States and the European Union have declared their readiness to host the conference to allow the new Iraqi government to present its program, its vision for the new Iraq to the international community. We are very pleased that the European Union as a group wants to do this. Because this will involve countries that have been less involved with the support in Iraq in the past. So from our standpoint it is an opportunity to show that the international community is united behind the democratically elected government of Iraq, and wants to do everything it can to support the stability and territorial integrity of the country, which we think is a great development.

The UN has an office in Baghdad, which is functioning. The UN of course was of great assistance on the election itself. And under 1546 they also have a role to play, should the Iraqis request it, on the drafting of the constitution. And we expect that they will play an appropriate role in that process.

Q: You said you visited the southern neighbors of Iraq. How was the atmosphere? What was your impression?

Ambassador Jones: I think that the all the neighbors that I spoke to are very supportive of the new government. They want to find ways to assist it. They recognize the importance for their own interests of having a stable Iraq. And they assured me that they will do what they can to participate in the international community’s effort to support the new government and to help it stabilize the country. It was very positive. We were very pleased with what we heard from all of the neighbors.

Q: Regarding American position because last year they were saying, they were talking about intervention and they were saying that they didn’t want this. And they were against the Big Middle East Project.

 

Ambassador Jones: I’m not sure what you are talking about.

Q: In the region there was a reaction to the American position to the Iraqi war. The social climate was…

Ambassador Jones: I think the elections changed a lot of peoples’ attitudes. I think the fact that the European Union is interested in hosting this conference is a reflection of the positive results of the election. I think the fact that the neighbors have seen that the elections allowed the Iraqi people to speak for themselves as to what kind of government they wanted to have. It allowed the Iraqi people to show the world that they want democracy. I mean, you had literally millions of Iraqis who were willing to risk their lives to vote. I am not sure many countries can claim that they have a stronger affinity for democracy than the Iraqi people showed on January 30. Because they were braving threats. And not just threats. They were braving actual attacks to participate in the elections. Of course it turned out that the elections were I think a resounding success for not only the Iraqi people but for the Iraqi security forces. We had 130,000 members of the Iraqi security forces on the ground protecting over 5,000 polling places throughout Iraq. And there were more than two hundred attacks that day. Not a single attack reached the polling place. In several instances, members of the Iraqi security forces gave their lives to prevent suicide bombers from gaining access to the polling places. In doing so, I think they really helped to show the Iraqi people and the world that Iraq is standing up for democracy. It’s standing up for its own future. And I know that the people gained a lot confidence in the security forces that day. And the security forces gained a lot of confidence in themselves, thanks to the heroism of these true Iraqi patriots.

Ambassador Jones: We are running out of time. Sorry.

Q: When do you want to leave Iraq, and the other thing when security…

Ambassador Jones: You mean me personally? You mean the multi-national forces?

Q: Multi-national forces. When will multi-national forces leave Iraq? And based on your experiences, how long will this insecure situation last in Iraq?

Ambassador Jones: First of all, I want to make it clear that the elections have not only had an impact on the international viewpoint and on the morale of the Iraqi people, they apparently had an impact on the insurgency in Iraq. Although there has been an up-tick in violence in the last week, for about eight weeks after the election, there was a marked downturn in violence. In fact, violence had returned to the levels of early last year. And this is a big step forward. In short, the attacks dropped by more than 50 %. And it shows I think that democracy can help stabilize the country. Having said that, historically, the average insurgency around the world lasts about nine years. So we don’t want to pretend that this is something that will be defeated overnight. I think though that if we can get more of the communities in Iraq to participate in the political process that will certainly help. But we have to recognize that there are elements of the insurgency that don’t care about democracy. In fact, they are afraid of democracy, and they want to defeat it. And they are going to continue.

Q: (inaudible)

Ambassador Jones: I think some elements are Iraqi and some are foreign. I think that it is very difficult for us to distinguish at a great level of detail. But I certainly believe that the majority of Iraqi people favor democracy. But I am not prepared to say that there are not Iraqi groups that are opposed to democracy. Certainly the foreign groups, by and large, are opposed to democracy.

Q: Are they only Arab people? I mean Muslims from the surrounding Arabic countries?

 

Ambassador Jones: There are clearly foreign fighters in Iraq that are part of the insurgency, that are opposed to democracy. But I don’t want to exaggerate the role they play. There is a clearly very large part of the insurgency that is Iraqi. But that is the component of the insurgency we hope to see laying down their arms and participating in the political process, as a result of the elections. Now that they have seen in fact a great majority of their countrymen do want to have a democratic government.

Q: Are there any from Turkey also?

Ambassador Jones: I am not aware of any reports.

Q: Because there were Turkish people fighting in Chechnya.

 

Ambassador Jones: I wouldn’t rule it out, I am just not aware of any particular reports.

Q: Are you going back to Iraq now?

Ambassador Jones: No, I am not visiting Iraq on this trip. I am actually going to go on to Europe. I visited Iraq. I was there twice in the last two weeks.

Q: For a journalist it is very dangerous. I used to go very often. But last year I couldn’t go.

Ambassador Jones: There is obviously you know a criminal element that is kidnapping people, taking them hostage and so on. There are risks. Not mafia, in the true sense of the word. But for want of a better term, organized crime. I mean journalists do obviously go into Iraq all the time. But most journalists that I am aware use some form of security service.