Statements by U.S. Officials
Live CNN Turk Interview with General Joseph Ralston , Special U.S. Envoy for Countering the PKK and General Edip Baser, Special Turkish Envoy for Countering the PKK
Istanbul, October 19, 2006
(Only General Ralston’s responses transcribed)
CNN Turk: Welcome to the program Mr. Ralston.
General Ralston: Thank you.
CNN Turk: I would like to start with you, Mr. Ralston. Today, the Turkish media and the Turkish public opinion are talking about Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari’s remarks. It was his remarks from yesterday. Mr. Zebari said it is out of question at this point for either Iraq or for the U.S. to take any action toward the PKK as the United States and Iraq have other priorities in the region. How do you evaluate this remark?
General Ralston: First of all, it is not for me to comment on what the Foreign Minister said or didn’t say. I wasn’t there. I don’t know exactly the context in which it was said. But let me assure you and your viewers that the U.S. takes this issue very, very seriously. We are taking actions as we speak across the board whether they are economic, political, diplomatic, or military to counter the PKK.
CNN Turk: Mr. Ralston. With the case of the remarks yesterday there was a referral to the United States as well. So, Mr. Zebari has spoke on behalf of the U.S. when he said the U.S. won’t take any action either. With that remark do you have anything to say?
General Ralston: Just like I said, I don’t speak for the Foreign Minister and I don’t believe the Foreign Minister speaks for the U.S. either.
CNN Turk: Mr. Ralston, this is obviously a very challenging process. You have been appointed for this position at a time when the U.S. has increasing lost credibility in the region. Do you see that as a handicap? Do you feel that when you talk to Turkish people? When you are in the region trying to find solutions do you feel the effect of the U.S. losing its credibility in the region?
General Ralston: Let me just state at the very beginning that I think one of the reasons that the United States asked me to take this job was to come and have someone that can focus almost full-time on this issue. I think that is a recognition on the part of the United States that we need to do more, we need to do more for Turkey, we need to do more for the Turkish people. I hope it will be seen in that regard.
CNN Turk: Right after your appointment a lot people commented that this was maybe a way of postponing a possible intervention by the Turkish state into northern Iraq. Do you feel that way or do you think your efforts will be able to at least put an end to the solution so that the Turkish state won’t feel the need to intervene? What is your position on that?
General Ralston: First of all, Turkey is a sovereign nation. Turkey will have to take whatever steps Turkey thinks are necessary to protect their interests. I am extremely grateful to the government of Turkey for appointing General Baser as my counterpart. We have worked through many difficult problems in the past when I was Vice-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and he was the Deputy Chief of the Turkish General Staff. Working difficult issues is not new for either one of us. I am very grateful to have the opportunity to work with him on this very, very difficult problem. I assure you that this is, in my view, not a delaying action in anyway. This is to come up with a series of steps that can be effective in countering this terrorist organization.
CNN Turk: Mr. Ralston, the last time you were in the region before yesterday‘s visit you met with Barzani as well last month. In (inaudible) we heard that you have asked for the Mahmur Camp to be closed. This was a special request both by Turkey and the United States; obviously the United States shared the same sensitivity as well. Now we have word from the Iraqi government that it is out of question that the Mahmur Camp is going to be closed, that it will remain there. Don’t you see that as a threat? Do you feel that you have asked for it and it hasn’t happened? Do you think it will be difficult to close this camp? How much authority do you think you will be able to have over the Iraqi authorities in cases like this?
General Ralston: First of all, I do believe that the Iraqi authorities were cooperative in my discussions yesterday throughout the government. First of all, I met yesterday with the UNHCR representative who is responsible for the camp. The United Nations thinks it should be closed, the United States thinks it should be closed, Turkey thinks it should be closed, and the Iraqi government understands the need for closure.
CNN Turk: But Hoshyar Zebari has said they will not close it. This was a remark stated clearly by him.
General Ralston: Again, I’m not here to speak on what anyone else said other than to say that the governments involved and the United Nations understand the need to rid this camp of the PKK terrorists. We need to get the arms out of the camp, we need to register the people that are in the camp so they have an official United Nations registration card; they need to do a survey of the intentions of people that are there. What are their intentions? Do they want to be repatriated? Do they want to stay where they are? These are all a series of steps that need to be done. There are also some bureaucratic things that need to be done. There are letters and exchanges, and agreements between the government of Iraq, the government of Turkey, and the United Nations that need to take place.
CNN Turk: Do you feel that a lot of us in Turkey are obviously sensitive about Iraq being divided into three regions— into a federal structure? But, de facto, when you talk to some people in Baghdad you get word that this camp is going to be closed. But then again, another Kurdish official from northern Iraq might say something completely the opposite. So, there is a de facto situation that Iraqi officials do not share the same position. Does that hinder your efforts at all? Do you feel that as well, as we witness it here in Turkey?
General Ralston: Let me answer your question this way. In the United States today, on any issue that comes up, I can find three people who have a different opinion on it. I would dare say that in Turkey there are different opinions on any particular issue that comes around. We shouldn’t find it unusual that in a complex society such as Iraq you will find more than one opinion. I think I would like to emphasize something that the President of the United States said this past week. He reiterated the importance of the territorial integrity of Iraq and having a unified country in Iraq.
CNN Turk: As Mr. Baser has pointed out, it is difficult to be in your shoes at this point, obviously. We see what the results of the PEW Poll said about the rising anti-Americanism in Turkey as well. Now we see that maybe the United States is engaging with Turkey through a multitude of channels and it is trying to engage in different ways as well. Is your position just one of those channels as well? Was this the underlying reason, not just the PKK, but the fact that maybe the United States is losing a staunch ally in the region? Would you say your mission has another purpose as well?
General Ralston: First of all, the primary purpose of our mission is to counter the PKK. Let’s make no mistake about it. That is the primary focus. If in fact we are successful with that, then there is no question that will do much to fix the state of relations between the United States and Turkey, and make it stronger than what it has been in the recent past. Turkey is a very, very valued ally of the United States. I can say as a former commander of NATO, the absolutely superb performance of the Turkish Armed Forces, whether it was in Kosovo, whether it was in Bosnia, whether it is Afghanistan today, whether it was in Korea in the past -- the Turkish Armed Forces have always stood with the United States Armed Forces, and I hope that fifty years from now we can say the same thing.
CNN Turk: For the U.S., the War on Terror is the number one priority today. I would like to ask you if you, as the United States, consider Osman Ocalan a terrorist?
General Ralston: I think “absolutely” is the answer to that. That is why he is in prison today.
CNN Turk: In recent weeks some of our colleagues have been making frequent visits to northern Iraq. They were able to visit Osman Ocalan and they were able to photograph him, especially Milliyet newspaper. They could also provide you with copies. He leads a very comfortable life with the peshmerga. The Kurdish soldiers kind of protect him. They are on duty in front of his house, so he is definitely not imprisoned.
General Ralston: No, no. I’m sorry, I misunderstood your question.
CNN Turk: This is a terrorist. Turkey feels that with U.S. intelligence being so extensive in that region they should do something to capture Osman Ocalan.
General Baser: It is the brother of Abdullah Ocalan.
General Ralston: I understand. I misunderstood your question to begin with.
CNN Turk: I’m sure you also recognize him as a terrorist. Do you not? Osman Ocalan?
General Ralston: First of all, I am here to concentrate on the PKK and all terrorists. We will use every means that we have--diplomatic, intelligence, economic, political, as well as military to work on the terrorism problem.
CNN Turk: So if part of the U.S. Army finds Ocalan they will capture him? Because when you see him as a terrorist, and when you see the War on Terror the U.S. has launched, it doesn’t help for the Turkish public opinion to have him in northern Iraq under the protection of the peshmerga soldiers when the U.S., we know, has been in close cooperation with the Kurdish officials there. If they had so willed they could have maybe captured him.
General Ralston: Again, I don’t want to talk about hypothetical situations that may or may not have occurred in the past. Let me just say it is a very, very complicated situation in Iraq. Everybody in Turkey knows that. The United States Military has 140,000 troops that are performing very well in Iraq. But they have a multitude of tasks. I think everyone should recognize that.
CNN Turk: So you are trying to prioritize them.
CNN Turk: Mr. Ralston, do you share Mr. Baser’s position that military intervention is always on the table. We ask this question because I know you give a lot of priority to first launching a dialogue with Iraqis trying to do it through diplomatic means. But once the case for military intervention is off the table it is difficult for diplomacy to work as well. Do you share his (Mr. Baser’s) position?
General Ralston: We are in complete agreement on this. I have stated many times to the media in Turkey that the military operation is definitely on the table. I have also said as a former military officer, all of us who wore the uniform understand that the use of force is a very serious decision. It should not be the first option that we go to. It should be used after other options are exhausted. In the past, I have recommended the use of force. I am not reluctant to recommend the use of force in the future should it be necessary. So, it is definitely is on the table.
CNN Turk: When you look at what the United States has done in the region since the launching of the war, what would you say is the greatest strategic failure if you had to just single out the one failure the U.S. has done--this was a mistake, I wish we could have done it otherwise? What is that?
General Ralston: I will give you something that may surprise you a little bit. If there is anything that could have been done better I would liked to have seen the lives of the average Iraqi citizen improved. I would like to see them have more electricity, better water, better healthcare, and better education. We have made some progress in some of those, in others we have not made as much progress as I’d like to see.
CNN Turk: I feel that the Turkish public is increasingly realizing that over the years that we were fighting the PKK the Turkish government came under strong scrutiny for their dealings with the terrorist suspects. The European Union put a lot of pressure on us, we were waging a difficult war on a very vicious terrorist organization. Now I look back and last Tuesday President Bush signed new legislation that creates new rules for both prosecuting and interrogating terrorist suspects. Do you feel that maybe now the United States understands the Turkish position a lot better now that they are also engaged in a War on Terror? Because in the past years when we passed laws like this we had difficult pressure on us. Do you think they have come to this realization in Washington?
General Ralston: First of all, let me say the U.S. has supported Turkey in its war on the PKK for a long time. The United States declared the PKK as a terrorist organization almost ten years ago in 1997. The United States was instrumental in getting the European Union to finally declare the PKK as a terrorist organization. There is no question that the United States is far more focused on terror today than it was ten years ago. I think that is a natural evolution. I do want to put on the record that the United States has been supportive of Turkey in its battle against the PKK for a long time.
CNN Turk: Mr. Ralston, there has been a new study group on Iraq led by James Baker. You are here as a guest of ASAM. One of ASAM’s reports actually pointed out that his study group on Iraq will come up with a new proposal to the Bush Administration that maybe dividing Iraq into three regions, into a federal structure, to divide and rule might be a better perspective. Obviously, this study group’s mission is to come up with different alternatives in order to help the Administration. How do you see this? This would be taken with great reaction in Turkey, obviously. Is such an offer on the table?
General Ralston: Such an offer is not on the table. Let me explain it this way. The bi-partisan group that Secretary Baker is leading along with Mr. Lee Hamilton, the Democratic co-chairman of this bi-partisan effort, is looking at a wide variety of recommendations to present to the President of the United States. First of all, they have come to no conclusions. Mr. Baker said this recently, that whatever they come up with he wants to have a consensus, meaning the Republican members, the Democratic members, of that particular study group are in agreement. To my knowledge that has still not happened. That is what they are still working through. I think to say that this group is going to recommend X, or Y, or Z is certainly premature. We are not at that point yet.
CNN Turk: Mr. Ralston, do you feel that in this whole process, in this three-fold coordination between Iraq, United States, and Turkey, would it affect your efforts at all if you feel Turkey gets closer to Iran or Syria. Is there any prerequisite for the continuation of your dealings with Turkey, that Turkey stand a certain distance from Iran or Syria? Or do you feel this is a totally independent bi-lateral relationship that Turkey undertakes?
General Ralston: First of all, I’m not here at all to advise the Turkish government on what they need to do with regard to either Syria or Iran. That is outside the mandate I have been given.
CNN Turk: But if they choose to would that affect their relations with you?
General Ralston: It is not going to affect their relations with me. I’m focused on what we can do between the U.S., Turkey, and Iraq versus the PKK.
CNN Turk: So as far as you are concerned, because a lot of people have felt that maybe the United States was using the using the Kurdish card in order to overcome the efforts of Turkey vis-à-vis Iran and Syria…
General Ralston: I have certainly been given no instructions along those lines. There are certainly bilateral channels between the United States and Turkey that are active all the time. I am focusing on countering the PKK.
CNN Turk: In countering the PKK oil revenues are a crucial point because they derive their wealth from there. In the past weeks there have been remarks by the Kurdish oil minister that from now on, any new oil wells that are found in the region would be administered by the Kurdish Ministry, whereas, the central Iraqi ministers have said this is not possible and all oil that comes out of Iraq will be administered by them. Will the United States take any position if you feel that in northern Iraq the oil is getting increasingly under Kurdish control?
General Ralston: Again, I’m not responsible for oil in northern Iraq. I would just refer you to the statement, I think, that President Barzani made when Secretary Rice was there a couple of weeks ago. I think it was very consistent with what the U.S. view is.
CNN Turk: Mr. Ralston, we are approaching the end of our program. I’d like to ask you if at any point during this process Turkey feels that we have exhausted all of the diplomatic channels that were available to us, and that we have gained no ground, and Turkey has decided to take military action in northern Iraq, what will be the position of the United States given that there are increasing attacks coming from northern Iraq to Turkey? What kind of position would the U.S. take?
General Ralston: First of all, as I said earlier on, Turkey is a sovereign state. Turkey will need to take whatever decisions they think are in the interest of the sovereign state of Turkey. I don’t think we ought to jump to that position right now. There are a lot of things we are working on together. We are working very closely. General Baser and I will be making recommendations to our respective governments along with the Iraqi government. I would just have a plea for the Turkish people to be patient and let us work through this process and come up with a lasting solution to the PKK.
CNN Turk: Has anything new come out from your meeting with the Iraqi President Jalal Talabani yesterday? That was the third time you were in Baghdad. You must have come up with new demands and they must have come up with, maybe, new gestures. What was the reaction you got? Any good news you can give to the Turkish public about that?
General Ralston: I think the best news I can say is that we are working very closely with the Iraqi government, as we are with the Turkish government. I think the details of those discussions are best kept quiet right now, and let’s let the process develop.
CNN Turk: Finally, we note that Barzani has asked for an amnesty for Abdullah Ocalan. How do you see Ocalan, first of all, Abdullah Ocalan? How would you describe him? Do you think giving him amnesty is the right thing to do? What was your reaction when they asked for that?
General Ralston: No one has asked me for that. This is a matter for the Turkish government and the Turkish people to resolve.
CNN Turk: It has (inaudible) the media sources as if there was such a discussion that Barzani and some of the Kurdish leaders have asked for a pardon. You say no such demand or request has been made to you?
General Ralston: I have had no such request. Again, that is an issue to be resolved by the Turkish government.
CNN Turk: We thank you both. It was an honor and pleasure to have you on the program.