Statements by U.S. Officials
Daniel Fried, Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs
Lunch with Senior Journalists at the Ambassador’s Residence
October 21, 2008 Ankara
Ambassador Wilson: Assistant Secretary Fried thank you for coming. We wanted to provide an opportunity for you all to talk a little bit again.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Let me explain why I came out here. I’ve spent now a week on the road. I’ve started in Geneva at this conference on Georgia. Then I went to Armenia for a day and a half. Then I was in Georgia for three days. And I came here because it is a good habit that we’re in of consulting with Turkey in general and in particular, on issues where Turkey has both a natural strong interest and something to add.
The consultations have become a habit after the strategic framework document that was signed by Secretary Rice and Foreign Minister Gul, then Foreign Minister Gul, in June 2006. And I have been in regular touch - I talk to Under Secretary Apakan all the time and I told him I wanted to come out here on my way from the south Caucasus to the Brussels conference on Georgia and consult. And we spent three hours this morning, steadily without a break covering just about everything, starting with the south Caucasus, covered that in depth, talked about the Balkans, talked about Cyprus, talked about Afghanistan, talked about energy, talked about Russia, talked about the PKK, a massive set of topics, very glad I came actually. This was a very good set of discussions.
And I’ll also say that it is now nearly the one year anniversary of the critical breakthrough meeting between President Bush and Prime Minister Erdogan that was on the PKK. That was a critical meeting. It was after that meeting that our cooperation ramped up substantially. And it’s been - for those of us who’ve been working on the issues - it’s a source of satisfaction to see the cooperation. Our satisfaction would have been even greater had it been earlier, but it is good that we’re doing it now, and it has been, it has actually worked in practice. It’s very important, and we regard the PKK as terrorists, we want them gone. We want to see Turkey successful, when Turkey conducts an operation against the PKK, we want it to be a successful operation. We’re glad when it is a successful operation. All the military coordination has been working, I think pretty much in accordance with the way we set out. You know it’s almost a year and it’s been - you can look back to that meeting and there are few individual meetings of leaders that produce results that are clear, specific and have much significance, so that you look back after a year, say yeah, that was a turning point, that was a terrific meeting.
Let me go through some of the issues, sort of walk through the week and then you can ask questions. Ross, does that seem about right? First of all, I think you’ve heard the stories of what happened in the Geneva conference. We have, obviously, real problems with what Russia did in Georgia. But I won’t repeat them. The purpose of the Geneva conference was not, in fact, to provide a platform for disagreements and making fiery speeches. The purpose of Geneva was and is to provide a platform for solving practical problems on the ground. Security and stability, IDP returns, humanitarian issues, a lot of issues where we all need to work together, even in the face of our differences over what the Russians did by invading Georgia and then recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia. We approach those talks in a constructive spirit and, quite frankly, I found the Russian delegation led by Deputy Minister Kirasin also to be in a constructive spirit. The Georgians were in a constructive spirit and, of course, the Europeans, Pierre Morel, EU’s Envoy, the UN, the OSCE were of the same mind. It was the South Ossetians and the Abkhaz who blew up the meeting. And it was a lost opportunity, but we’re not giving up, we’re going to try to return to this on November 18th and we want to see practical progress. Now from there, I went to Yerevan. I spent a day and a half with President Sargsyan, other leaders, the opposition, civil society. And one of my messages was support for this process of Turkish-Armenian reconciliation. I think that President Sargsyan took a courageous step by inviting President Gul to Yerevan. I think President Gul was wise in accepting it. This meeting was constructive, it was a good visit, and it shouldn’t end there. We hope that Turkey and Armenia are able to work together and have a good future looking ahead. It’s critically important, let’s be honest, in the wake of the Russian-Georgian war, to see if we can solve or help solve some of the regional problems in the south Caucasus. So I find this is a hopeful moment in Turkish-Armenian relations and we very much support a normalization of ties. And I won’t hide, I told President Sargsyan, I supported what he did, and I told him that I thought Turkey was quite serious about improving relations. And it is important for everybody to look again at the various blockages that have kept this issue from being resolved. These are tough issues for the Armenians but I think, I’m impressed frankly that President Sargsyan seems to be ready to take this on. I think it’s a good thing.
I then went to Georgia. I spent three days there. I met with - I wanted to get out of Tbilisi. I met with IDPs, displaced persons, refugees from South Ossetia. I drove up to, near the administrative boundary with South Ossetia. I tried to get as close as I could to Gori the Georgian town, sort of the south east corner of South Ossetia. I went to Gori, then north of Gori to the former buffer zone where the Russians have just left, the EU monitors are just in, Georgian farmers are returning, but I have to tell you that situation is very difficult. The farms, most of the farms, the villages are intact that is, there wasn’t massive destruction. But there was massive looting, stealing. The farm equipment is gone, most of the cattle was stolen, the farmers don’t have the where with all to bring in the crop, and there’s not security.
Media: By Ossetians?
Assistant Secretary Fried: By South Ossetians, not by Russians, but by South Ossetian gangs coming from South Ossetia. And that’s still happening. I didn’t know that, but the South Ossetian gangs are still crossing and raiding and attacking Georgian farmers. I talked to one farmer whose father had been kidnapped three days before I saw him, that is after the withdrawal of the Russian forces, by South Ossetian gangs, and this poor farmer had survived the war and kept his livestock intact. He is a wealthy - for Georgia, he is a wealthy farmer, sixty head of cattle, all of them were stolen by the South Ossetian gang that kidnapped his father. So there’s a security problem and you can’t have IDPs returning without security, and so it was good to see on the ground what the problem is. I also met, obviously, with President Saakashvili, with the Prime Minister, with the Foreign Minister, with also the leaders of the opposition, with civil society; so it was an intensive set of meetings. And my message to the Georgians was we do support your territorial integrity, your sovereignty, your independence, but the only way to resolve these problems is peacefully. War is not an option, violence is not an option. The situation isn’t fair, it isn’t right. The US and almost all of the world does not, will not, recognize South Ossetia and Abkhazia independence, of course not. But this has to be a peaceful solution. And Georgia should look to economic recovery, IDP returns, and we all need to do what we can to help the IDPs return to the rest of Georgia safely, and have them return to South Ossetia and Abkhazia safely, and get monitors into South Ossetia and Abkhazia so that we know what’s going on. It’s a kind of blackout in South Ossetia. We’ve heard that the Georgian villages have been destroyed, the Georgians have been expelled, but nobody knows because nobody can get in. There’s been one OSCE mission into South Ossetia, only one, and it was hard to do.
So, it’s a difficult situation but our message was Georgia is not alone. The US and Europe have put a lot of money into Georgia. Tomorrow, tonight I’m going to the donors’ conference, Turkey will be there at the senior level. But there has to be a peaceful solution. You know the position of my government. We think that Russia was guilty of a great many provocations before the war, but we think - and have said publicly - that Georgia made a mistake on the night of August 7th to send the troops into Tskinvali, I’ve said that publicly. But Russia was wrong to retaliate, to invade across an international line, and then wrong again to try to change international borders by war. Georgia made a mistake inside its own country. Russia made a mistake attacking another country. But as I said, we are interested in solving problems, stabilizing the situation, and then working for longer term solutions. So it was three days, it was fascinating and it’s always good to see the situation on the ground. And then yesterday afternoon, I got on a plane and came here. And as I said I had three and a half hours with U/S Apakan, who is an old friend, just one of my favorite interlocutors because frankly he is so good. He’s just so confident, knows his material and is a good partner to work with. We covered a tremendous amount, let me stop here. There’s a lot more to say, but I want to talk about the things you’re interested in, these, others, anything else
Media: Today is actually the anniversary of the PKK attack to a Turkish border station which actually triggered the events ending up with the meeting at the White House on the 5th of November. In the last one year, many things have changed, but PKK attacks are still there. You’re supplying timely intelligence, as Turkish Armed Forces admit, and they’re grateful for the intelligence sharing. They call it excellent intelligence sharing. How do you see the problem there? How would you describe the ongoing attacks and despite the intelligence sharing, we have the problem still here. Yesterday, PJAK, the PKK extension in Iran, warned the US to cut intelligence to Turkey which raises the question whether they want to say that they will not fight any more against Iran otherwise. So I want to hear your evaluation.
Assistant Secretary Fried: You’re right that our cooperation with Turkey has been good. It has been productive. It has worked. We want the Turkish military strikes against the PKK to be successful. That’s why we provide the information. The PKK is a terrorist group. We want it gone. We want its operations - we want no more operations in Turkey, we want no more bases in northern Iraq, just period, there’s no place for the PKK. We’re glad our operations have gone, we’re glad our cooperation has gone well. How do we see the situation? The Turkish military has proven and the PKK knows that there is no safe haven in northern Iraq. And this is a change, and it is a good change. The cooperation and the contacts between Turkey and Iraq, and between Turkey - both the central government of Iraq and the KRG regional government in Iraq - have improved. And this is excellent. So, this combined push against the PKK is yielding results. It is not satisfactory because the attacks are still going on. It will not be satisfactory until the attacks are over. Then we wish Turkey well and are not simply wishing well or helping Turkey. With regard to PJAK, well I mean, it’s a very simple answer, we’re helping Turkey by providing information against the PKK and we’ll continue to. Our cooperation is very clear. You’re right, I remember that attack, and you should know that Ambassador Wilson has been, how shall I put this diplomatically, active in telling Washington how serious a problem this was. And I remember actually a year ago today, the active communications from Ambassador Wilson to Washington. He’s not a passive Ambassador, you ought to know that. He’s been an active Ambassador, and let us say, frank. We’ve known each other for a long time, so I can say that. You’re also getting, look Jim Jeffrey shows you how important the Turkish relationship is, that the person who was the Deputy National Security Advisor sitting in his West Wing office, 30 seconds walk away from the Oval Office, is now coming out here to Ankara as the next Ambassador. Pretty important.
We will keep working with Turkey. And Turkey is, by working with the Iraqi government in Baghdad, by working with the Kurdish Regional Government and, of course, completely separately working to, reaching out to the Kurdish community in Turkey, Turkish citizens, to help them is also a wise move, seems to me.
Media: Regarding this final move with the Kurds, the KRG in northern Iraq, the Prime Minister and also the Foreign Minister are talking about trilateral process between Iraq, the US and Turkey and including the northern Iraqi regional government. When you talked to Mr Under Secretary, did they share what they are expecting from the new process, what they are meaning by this trilateral process? On the one side they are planning to create a new process, on the other hand the Minister is telling that it won’t replace the bilateral intelligence sharing process with the US.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, I think you’re right that the bilateral intelligence sharing process will continue. It’s a good thing. But we certainly have supported Turkey’s efforts to work with Iraq, and we’ve talked about various ways to help this process. And our view is basically, whatever can bring Turkey and Iraq - both the central government and KRG - closer together to combat the PKK and in support of Iraq’s territorial integrity and its unity, is a good thing.
So, we have challenges. The PKK is still mounting attacks. We’re not congratulating ourselves and saying “Gee, the problem is solved,” far from it. But we’re far better off than we were a year ago. And now we need to build on the progress, not sit, but build on the progress and create conditions for taking the next steps. So it’s hard to talk about progress when Turks are still being killed by PKK attacks. So, I have to acknowledge that, and it’s simply not right to say “oh, the problem is on its way to being solved.” There’s much more work to do, and these attacks are a tragedy for the victims and a problem for Turkey and, therefore, a problem for the US. But we have made progress and we want to build on it.
Media:
The main problem concerning the struggle against the PKK are the
geographic conditions, yesterday there was a statement of the Chief of
Army of Iraq to a Turkish daily news paper saying that they can change
even the borders. Is it a good idea according to you?
Assistant Secretary Fried:
I can’t imagine that a discussion of changing borders is very useful.
That usually doesn’t solve problems, it usually just creates them.
And, besides, you’re right about the geographic problems. It’s tough,
the terrain is tough. You have to deal with that. I cannot imagine, I
cannot conceive of circumstances even when a discussion of this be
useful.
Ambassador Wilson: If I can just add, I think it’s a strongly stated policy both the Turkish government and the US government that we support Iraq’s territorial integrity and unity.
Assistant Secretary Fried: As I said earlier, that’s a fundamental position of both our governments. So there’s no ambiguity.
Media: Do you foresee in the short run a sort of a new mechanism? I mean we’re always talking about the trilateral mechanism in Turkey, Iraq and US. And actually it did happen a couple of years ago. Do you think it could be refreshed, could be started again?
Assistant Secretary Fried: The trilateral mechanism?
Media: Yeah. Or is there any idea like that?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We’re open to ideas that will help. And we want to listen to our Turkish allies. We will listen to our Iraqi friends. And we’re open to ideas that will work. I can tell you that we are, everyone knows, everyone in the American government understands, the dimension of problem. It’s complicated. But because we’ve made progress in Iraq overall - because the Iraqis have made progress stabilizing that country, strengthening their institutions - it’s far easier to deal with these problems then it was - think we were two years ago: a much more difficult place in Iraq, a much more difficult place with respect to the PKK. Anyway we’re open to ideas. There’s not a rigid made in America formula.
Ambassador Wilson: Exactly, I don’t think we want to get into too much, the details of our conversations with Turkish authorities they wish to (inaudible) I’m sure that they will do so. We have long encouraged collaboration between Turkey and Iraq on the PKK problem. Anything and everything that we can do to facilitate that cooperation, we’re interested in. And we look forward to having continuing conversations with authorities here, and authorities in Iraq on how best to do that.
Media: Debate in Turkey for the last few weeks now which wasn’t there before, which has never been there before that, the public opinion is questioning the (inaudible) of the government and the military regarding the PKK attacks. Since there’s an excellent cooperation with intelligence sharing, is there a problem in the assessment of the intelligence by the Turkish side as you see? Do you give advices or cooperation only?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I think…I’m not a military person and directly involved. But what I hear is that this has worked reasonably well, and that there has been, I think, over time we’ve gotten better at it. I mean, I remember where we were last winter. It wasn’t as smooth a process, but look at the terrain - and it is difficult terrain for these sorts of operations - and the PKK, as our Generals say, the enemy also gets to vote. They take measures also. So, I think it is frustrating whenever there is an up tick in PKK attacks. It is understandably frustrating, but we’re also learning and doing better as time goes on.
Media: Can you give me some details?
Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, that’s actually…the trouble with sharing the details is that you also share with anybody who is interested and now all of them are frankly….
Media: We will share with our readers. (laughter)
Assistant Secretary Fried: Of course. Turkish readers are not the readers I’m worried about. Ok. So there are other readers who are not as friendly, so, there are certain things which shouldn’t be discussed in the open press.
Ambassador Wilson: I think, only to add, the Turkish military has done a terrific job. They have done a terrific job. Over the last eleven months, going after the PKK. And it has seriously degraded (PKK) capabilities. That doesn’t mean that they’re not a potent organization, of course they are. Aktutun, unfortunately, demonstrated that, but the Turkish military has done a tremendous job and I think we’re pleased that we are able to provide support, assistance, increasing the potency of what Turkey’s able to do.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Let’s put it this way. I’m familiar, as is Ambassador Wilson, with the mechanism for sharing information. It is technically very difficult and it is a sign of the high operational capabilities of the Turkish military. But this is a very difficult process of information sharing remember - it’s not just passive information sharing, it’s information sharing with operational impact. This has worked pretty well which demonstrates that what the Ambassador says is right.
Media: Do you have any complaints that some of the confidential information that you give to Turkish army like satellite pictures or I don’t know what are leaked to press or ‘stolen’ as the terminology used by the military?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I’ve not heard problems about this. I’m not aware of major complaints about this. I think our people are pretty satisfied. I’ve sat in a lot of meetings in Washington and my sense is that this channel is working pretty well. And it’s, it is a high – what we call a high operational tempo, in other words, very intense. When it is intense, it is very intense, it is what we call nearly real time. And I think that it’s a testament to the degree of cooperation that this is working as well as it is. Again, I’m not saying that Turkish opinion should be satisfied. None of us will be satisfied until we succeed.
Media: I have two questions sir. First of all, as everybody knows the roots of the problem is inside, not outside. There was a popular word-
Assistant Secretary Fried: Inside where?
Media: Inside Turkey, I mean. The roots of the problem, Kurdish problem, I mean. Not terrorism, I’m separating terrorism and the problem. The ‘civilian solutions,’ this was a popular word last year and sometimes it comes to the agenda. So it seems that the government has less courage on taking steps about the solution of the problems, and they just put the problem into an economic solution, just increasing the levels of the people, some investments, economic investments, but as we know, there are some statements from the US officials in the past that the problem also includes political and cultural problems. So do you still encourage the government to take some more steps about the roots of the problem, I mean culturally and politically.
And secondly, could you possibly inform us a little bit about the future prospects of the US foreign policy about the region? I mean, you have an election in November, and Barack Obama has already declared that he gave a deadline for the pullback of the soldiers in Iraq. What kind of role would the American foreign policy give Turkey for the future of the region? You encourage Turkey to have good relations with the northern Iraq administrations, so what kind of future prospects do you have, I mean, as American foreign policy for the region, specifically for the role of Turkey?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I’ll answer your first question. It’s not for an American official to suggest to the democratically elected Turkish government what its domestic policy should be. I will say this, that Turkey over the past generation - I first came to Turkey in 1985 - and over the past generation Turkey has become a much more prosperous, much more democratic, much more modern society. That’s just, that is Turkish progress which is just a fact, that’s reality. And I think as Turkey’s democracy deepens, as the country becomes, as it is becoming more wealthy, more successful, more confident, some of the issues that you mentioned will start to resolve themselves. So I think that the overall direction of Turkey over the past generation has been really quite good. Look at Ankara, it’s so obviously…it’s been prospering, Turkey has had an economic boom after the financial tensions at 2001. And Turkish democracy is developing, so I think that’s my answer to your question. This process is moving forward well.
Now your second question, and the role of Turkey in U.S. foreign policy. I spent three hours with Under Secretary Apakan going through major issues, just solidly without a break, and a lot of the major issues of U.S. foreign policy, not all of them, but a lot of them involve Turkey. U.S. relations with Russia; there is a Turkish dimension; the south Caucasus, Georgia, a Turkish dimension; energy and the search for alternative routes out of Russia, free from Russian control, has a Turkish dimension because of the geography. The Middle East, Turkey has played a role with the Israeli – Syrian talks; Iraq, we’ve discussed that; Iran, we have discussed that, too. Afghanistan, Turkey has a role because of its commitment, also because of its history, for the knowledge of the region on the ground.
The U.S. – Turkish agenda is enormously rich and, therefore, the next U.S. President will have to give great importance to U.S. – Turkish relations. I am not speaking for the next administration, but that is kind of an objectively true fact. The U.S. – Turkish relationship is important. The U.S. – Turkish partnership is important and it is a partnership where we…it is important that the foundation be a common strategic assessment of the world and our alliance. That doesn’t mean we agree on all issues all the time. We do not agree on all issues all the time with our allies in Western Europe, but that hasn’t stopped our cooperation from deepening and developing. And, I think, the next U.S. President and the next administration will build on the progress we have made, especially in the last few years, in strengthening our foundation with Turkey. Not speaking for them, but it’s just so obvious to me that U.S.- Turkish relations are important. I am pretty confident in just asserting that.
Media: So, but for the first part of my question, do you mean there is no need for an urgent step for...
Assistant Secretary Fried: No, I didn’t say that, I said that it is not for the U.S. Government to start suggesting what the Turkish Government should do. I think that the Turkish Government has said already that it is going to work for the sake of development and economically, socially reaching out to the Kurdish community in southeast Turkey, and I think this is a good thing. These are wise moves. And I was answering your question in a broader context. Because I think that… look I’m an outsider okay. I know less about Turkey then everybody else in this room. But, as an outsider I just see that the general contours of Turkey’s history moving toward a more modern, a more inclusive, more democratic, wealthier society, and I suspect that that will mean that these problems are more easily resolved. That was not a prescriptive answer, it was a descriptive answer, but it is a good context as opposed to a deteriorating context.
Media: Mr. Barzani said yesterday now, that there is a very constructive atmosphere between Turkey and the Kurdish regional administration. But on the other hand he still has difficulties seeing the PKK as a terrorist organization. Now the question is as long as they do not see PKK as a terrorist organization do you think that the cooperation between Ankara and Erbil will have satisfactory results?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We regard the PKK as a terrorist organization. We are certainly pleased that Mr. Barzani condemned strongly the terrorist acts of the PKK. That is a good thing and we hope to build on this cooperation. Look, what can I say? There have been some real progress made and we need to build on that. The contacts are good. And when I consider what has happened… you know, a year ago, when we started this process, many people argued - not in Turkey - many argued or were worried that if we cooperated with Turkey against the PKK, it would somehow make impossible an improvement of Turkey’s relations with the KRG and with the Iraqi central government, but look what’s happened, it is the opposite. As Turkey has moved against the PKK terrorists, it has also wisely reached out to the Kurdish Regional Government as well as to the Iraqi central government. Relations have improved. This is actually… nobody in my business or people don’t often enough in my business recognize when your colleagues do a really good job. This has been a good job by Turkey. There are problems and challenges remaining, but I have a very clear memory as well as Ambassador Wilson, the range of possibilities a year ago. And if Ross has forgotten, I remember his prediction of the range of possibilities. And of that range of possibilities we’re at the most optimistic end because we did the right things, we the United States and I think Turkey did the right things, and I think the Iraqi Government and the Kurdish Regional Government has been doing some of the right things, too. Look, I don’t mean to be over optimistic; I just went through years and years of a very frustrating process. I remember coming here in the early years, three or four years ago, when we would be having quite a different conversation. How many Turkish journalists used to ask me ‘when are you going to get serious, when are you going to take this seriously? Our people are being killed and you aren’t doing any thing.’ Those were pretty sharp questions and I didn’t have, until a year ago, until President Bush said that the time is now, we are moving out, we are going to do this, I didn’t have very adequate answers. Now, we do. It’s a good thing. I credit President Bush, I credit Prime Minister Erdogan, I credit the militaries of both countries and other players here. Now, I am being quite frank, but you know you don’t need me, if you want boring talking points. We can provide those, too. We do plenty of that at the State Department, but I am trying to be honest with you, even on the record, about the past few years, because you all know this too. This is not exactly a secret. And the Ambassador hasn’t launched himself across the table to get me to stop talking, so I guess it’s..
Media: So we still didn’t ask correct questions? (laughter) The right question is not asked yet. (laughter)
Assistant Secretary Fried: No. There is no such thing as a hard question. There are only difficult answers.
Media: I didn’t say hard, I said right. What about the Nagorno-Karabakh situation?
Assistant Secretary Fried: Fair enough. I also talked about this in Yerevan, of course. We talked about it also. I haven’t been to Baku, but the Vice President went to Baku, Deputy Secretary Negroponte went to Baku, and this high on our agenda. The Nagorno-Karabakh question is one of those questions which has blocked the opening up of normal relations between Armenia and Azerbaijan. It needs to get solved, particularly in the context of the Russian – Georgian war of last August. The Minsk Group process has made progress. Not enough, but it has established the framework for a possible solution. We support that process, and some people in Armenia said ‘do you still support the process even though you disagree with Russia so much about Georgia’ and I said ‘yes, we’re going to work with Russia in that process.’ We need a solution, and I think President Aliev understands perfectly well that there is no military solution, and President Sargsyan understands perfectly there is no military solution. They need to work to get this settled as best be can. It is difficult. If it were easy to solve it would have been solved, but we think that there is a window of opportunity to try to…and we will try to help. It’s not up to us, but we want to be helpful. I raised this, obviously, discussed this with President Sargsyan and, yes, it came up in my discussions with Under Secretary Apakan. There wasn’t a thing that we didn’t discuss, as far as I can tell.
Media: The Afghanistan issue, you know, the British commanders are very sad about what is happening in the country. And it is also making the atmosphere very negative for America as well, because the British soldiers are the most important allies of the Americans - not only in Iraq, but also in Afghanistan. And seemingly just, maybe a journalistic word but, every thing is going bad. What is your expectation from the Turkish side and are you hopeful regarding just changing the picture in the positive?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We have made a lot of progress in Afghanistan and there are tremendous challenges that we still face, and that’s just the nature of things. We are looking very hard in our Afghanistan policy deciding what works and deciding what hasn’t worked, what we need to do better. I won’t speak for the British, but we all would like to see progress faster and more consistently made in Afghanistan, but we need to succeed, and we’ve learned a lot of lessons and we need to apply those lessons effectively. Turkey has a lot of knowledge on the ground. You go back in Afghanistan for a while. You know the territory and you are a very good ally there. We want to work with Turkey and consult with Turkey about the way ahead. Now, I’m not one of the Afghan experts, so I wasn’t here doing detailed Afghanistan discussions, but we take Turkey’s role seriously, and we want to work with Turkey and, of course, through NATO because this is a major NATO operation. There is more to do. We have to be pretty realistic about this. There is a rule in life: that when things are good, remember that they can get bad again. So don’t be euphoric. And when everybody is telling you that things are terrible, don’t get too despondent either. They’re never as good as you’d like them to be and they are never as bad as somebody else is shouting at you that they are. Remember Iraq two years ago? A lot of Americans who said not that we are having difficulties, but that it is utterly and irredeemably lost, period, full stop. Okay? And it wasn’t irredeemably lost. We were going through a very difficult period. In Afghanistan, the situation does not appear now as dire as it appeared in Iraq two years ago. So, we do not want to wait for it to be dire. We want to look soberly, realistically at this. General Petraeus has now moved, he is the head of CENTCOM. He is looking at this, too.
This is serious business. You need to look soberly at the problems and not believe…you should never believe your own best wishes for your own success. You should never believe other people’s predictions of catastrophe. One of the hardest things in policy making is to have the courage to look at things cold and as they are. And ignore what you would want them to be, or what other people tell you they are. That’s just a general rule. Ambassador Wilson and I have been in this business, I’m sorry Ross to say this, but we are the old men of the business, okay? You can say ‘speak for yourself,’ (laughter) but you know something? Thirty years, man, thirty plus years. We knew each other in Moscow in the Soviet Union when Brezhnev was General Secretary. And everybody thought that the Soviet Union would go on for ever. And that Brezhnev would go on forever and nothing would change. There were certain truths that were eternal. Europe would be divided. The Berlin Wall would always stand, the Soviet Union would always exist. So, it was a good lesson midway through my career. History is more plastic and dynamic than you think. And you don’t know what is going to happen, so, be modest. Don’t be too timid about thinking about change either, because things can happen, good and bad. These are just general thoughts because you asked about Afghanistan and it’s important to have a sense of the contours of the problem.
Media: I do not want to ask too many questions, but what were the complaints and expectations of Mr. Apakan regarding the PKK, Iraq and Kurdish regional government. What were your answers?
Assistant Secretary Fried: I’m not going to go into details, but this was not a gripe session. Remember, we both share the same objectives. We both know where we’ve been, three years ago, a year ago and now. So, this was very business-like rather than complaints. This is what we have done, this is what we haven’t done, this is the direction we are going, this is what we need to do, and I like hearing from him. I met with Ambassador Cevikoz in New York for 90 minutes. I find my meetings with Turkish officials to be very rewarding because they are so good. We go through the issues systematically, analytically. What’s our assessment of the situation, what are our options, what do we do now, what’s your homework, what’s my homework, okay will get back together. I’m trying to describe the tone. It wasn’t a complaint session.
Media: As far as I understand, you are optimistic person.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, otherwise I would go completely mad. (laughter)
Media: I can imagine. When you expressed that you are so happy about the rapprochement between Armenia and Turkey. And you said that it shouldn’t end over there. But although there will be elections in two weeks time in your country, do you detailed plan to take this rapprochement further between Turkey and Armenia?
Assistant Secretary Fried: There is no American detailed plan and American detailed plans usually are not...they’re often not a good idea because the Armenian Government and probably the Turkish Government believe they can handle things, and they don’t need a detailed American plan telling them what to do. We don’t do that. But we do encourage both sides. You said I’m an optimistic person, it is a helpful moment in Turkish Armenian relations. Does that mean that success is inevitable? No. It means success is more possible now then it has been in the past. It is an American cultural characteristic, some say an American cultural peculiarity, that we tend to be optimistic in our outlook. That is, we tend to look at possibilities rather then problems. I like to think that if there is a brick wall in front of me I will look for a little crack. And pretty much all that exists for me is the crack. But that is not personal, that’s really a cultural…that’s just what Americans are like for good or ill.
There are tremendous difficulties and obstacles, and it is always easier in cases like this - Turkish – Armenian rapprochement - for people to say ‘no, no, never.’ It’s always easier on any given day to say ‘no I refuse,’ because then always you will have a portion of society applauding you. And if you say yes, ‘I’m going to take a risk and move ahead,’ there is always a portion of people who say ‘you are too weak, you didn’t ask enough’ or even another portion says ‘you betrayed the national…something.’ And it takes courage to move ahead, and it is wise leaders who have that kind of courage, and they often don’t get applauded. And sometimes they are condemned and sometimes it’s dangerous for them. But that’s the price of leadership, and in Turkish-Armenian relations on any given day it’s easier for both sides to say ‘well, let’s not move.’ But what’s the result? Stagnation, abnormality? After Russia’s attack on Georgia, it is important to unblock these problems, partly because…you know, some problems do not get better. You think you can manage them every day and you can until they blow up in your face. There are a lot of painful issues in Turkish- Armenian relations. And these are serious, but what are people waiting for? The problems won’t go away by themselves. And it was the right thing for President Sargsyan to extend that invitation and some people criticized him for it. It is the right thing for President Gul to go. Sometimes you have to take what you can do and build on it. And sometimes it’s the only choice you have. It is also not realistic to sit back and rely on a kind of cynical appraisal of all the time. Sometimes taking a risk is the higher realism. Because if you don’t then you end up stuck and slowly things deteriorate. And some people say it’s not realistic to expect an improvement. So that’s not realism, that’s defeatism. And that’s not leadership.
Media: As a follow up, Turkey is trying to mediate with between Israel and Syria and also it has some other mediation at work. And also after Russia attacked Georgia, Turkey brought the idea of a Caucasus cooperation platform. But as far as we understand the U.S. Administration is not that warm to this platform idea. So, what would you think about a possible other mediations of Turkey for the Caucasus?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We think that Turkish diplomacy can play a constructive role. We will want to consult with our Turkish friends, and our Turkish friends have a right to expect that we will consult with them about our ideas, which is what I was doing here. I keep in pretty regular touch with Under Secretary Apakan, we call each other up. And so, I don’t believe in surprising friends and I know that he doesn’t either. For something…for an idea like Turkey’s stability platform in the Caucasus to work, just as a practical matter the United States and Europe will have to be involved. Turkey is an aspirant to join the European Union. It is a member of NATO. Turkey also has a national role to play. You know the ground, you’re here. And it’s important that we work together on this. The United States has good relations with all three countries in the south Caucasus. We have bad relations with none. We are able to work with Russia despite our differences - sometimes better then others, be sure. So, I think we can contribute to these efforts, and certainly my discussions with Under Secretary Apakan make me more confident that we are going to be working with Turkey on these issues.
Media: So it will not remain as five countries as proposed by (inaudible).
Assistant Secretary Fried: I didn’t say that. I think that for an initiative like this to be successful it has to be structured so that the players, the countries that can contribute are included. But I’ve got a lot of respect for Turkish diplomacy. We want to work, we want to work with Turkey and I appreciate the discussions I‘ve had with my Turkish counterparts. And, again, Turkey also has some reasonable expectations. For example, it is fair for Turkey to expect that the United States will consult with it on what we are doing in the south Caucasus, and that’s what I’m here doing. We did have this discussion, and I’ll continue to talk to our Turkish friends.
Media: Do you encourage Kurdish Regional Administration cooperate militarily with Turkey?
Assistant Secretary Fried: We encourage all of the Iraqi authorities - central government, Kurdish Regional Government - to cooperate with Turkey against PKK terrorism. And by the way, Ambassador Crocker, in Baghdad, is very active in this as he is in all things.
Media: So, my question is about your approach to Turkish democracy. People are sometimes questioning the sincerity of the U.S. Administration about democracy, the future of Turkish democracy. In the critical terms in the past, for example, in the late April 2007, when the military made a statement against government, we haven’t heard a powerful encouragement about democracy from your administration. And in the last several months, the closure case against the Justice and Development Party, almost all of the European countries opposed a possible closure decision from the court, but we haven’t heard any powerful voice from your administration. So, how is the balance in your eyes for the administration, the balance about the civilian authority and the role of military in the civilian administration for Turkey?
Assistant Secretary Fried: There is no ambiguity at all. We certainly support Turkey’s democracy, the democratically elected Turkish Government, the Turkish Constitution. There is no question. We have good relations with this government. There are complicated issues of secularism and what it means that are complicated for Turks to resolve. The issue of headscarves, for example. It is one thing in Turkey. France has an issue of headscarves, and in the United States the issue is seen as something different. It’s not for us to start a lecture Turkey on what its position should be, what we want on this. It’s not our business, but we do believe in Turkish democracy, we believe in the Constitution, the secular constitutional order, no question about that, and I don’t think there is any question of our support for the constitutional order. I’m well aware of Turkish history. There have been military coups and pressure in the past, but Turkey is becoming a different country than it was, and this is a good thing. I think, in general, a country with strong democratic institutions is apt to be a more stable and successful country overall. That’s a general view and it applies to Turkey as well as anywhere else. There’s no ambiguity in our position about this. Fair enough to ask because policy issues like headscarves are sometimes conflated with constitutional issues, and it’s not really our business to start pronouncing on issues that are for Turkey’s democracy to work out, but as far as democracy goes we have one set of points. We believe in democracy, the rule of law, the secular constitutional order, full stop, not qualified. I didn’t convince you. I can see that. (laughter)
Media: It’s okay, I got my answers. But actually I know that last year I was in U.S. for the International Visitor Program and I saw the real discussions in your country about Turkey, how to approach Turkey.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, wait a minute. Outside of the government, there is a very lively debate, and I’m not going to hide it or pretend it doesn’t exist. Ambassador Mark Paris - well known person, very serious person, has one set of views. Then there is Michael Rubin; known person, very strong set of views. There is Zeyno Baran - she has pretty sophisticated views. There is a spectrum of opinion among American, non-government people about Turkey, about Turkish politics. You are telling me there is not a spectrum in Turkey about the United States? There certainly is and much of it is pretty rough. But there is a spectrum of views and there is a debate among foreign policy observers. I do not consider myself a particular Turkish expert, but we’ve worked well with this Government and we’ve had disagreements and they’ve disagreed with us, but in general, we respect this Government and we’ve worked well, Secretary Rice has had wonderful personal relations with then Foreign Minister now President Gul. We’ve talked about Prime Minister Erdogan’s critically important and dramatically successful meeting with President Bush. Secretary Rice enjoys her meetings with Ali Babacan, so we’ve worked well with this government. But if you were in the United States, of course you saw a spectrum of views and it was probably was fascinating to you the combination of what you probably thought was insight and ignorance. But I’m not going to ask you. You are the one who gets ask me the questions.
Media: I suppose you don’t want to get involved in very domestic policies of Turkey.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Oh, it’s pretty dangerous to do so.
Media: This is on the record? (laughter)
Assistant Secretary Fried: Yeah. Look, I will say on the record that it is up to the Turkish people to choose, and what we are interested in - and I’ll say it on the record - is that this takes place in a framework which is democratic, respects the Turkish secular Constitution, and also we have watched a democratic revolution in Turkey over the past let’s say generation. Democratic institutions have deepened and strengthened, and this is an excellent thing. This is a good thing.
It’s none of our business, which political parties Turks vote for. We have worked with left, right, center. Liberal, Christian Democratic in Europe, all manner of parties, and, basically, I’ve learned that it is best to work with the government that the people of a country gives you, full stop. And work with them on the basis of what you can do in common, and don’t try to take sides, don’t try to get involved because you are not smart enough, and it’s none of your business, and it will just irritate people.
We work with governments and then we keep up good ties with the opposition, and it’s usually best to listen to everybody. And people outside government, business people, outside observers, and don’t let any one person with a strong and convincing presentation sway you too much. So let this stuff…think it through. And when you are lucky enough to have a first A grade Ambassador like Ross Wilson, you can also listen to him. I tell you, it saves a lot of anxiety being able to listen to the Ambassador and think ‘you know, Ross probably has it about right and I can relax,’ that’s also a great thing. I mean, he is at the end of his tenure, otherwise I wouldn’t say any of these nice things about him. (laughter) Itwould just go to his head and he would be impossible.
Media: He has been listening to many people, that’s why.
Assistant Secretary Fried: And it shows. U.S. ambassadors should never listen to only one set of people or become friends of a certain group. You are friends with everybody, except the wild extremes. Basically, we should be listening to everybody and then sort of think about it for a while, instead of think ‘okay, here are our friends and here are our enemies,’ because it doesn’t usually work out so well when you think that way.
Media: You just said that the meetings with the Turkish diplomats were productive, because you start with (inaudible) and so this time what is the homework assignment for you?
Assistant Secretary Fried: Well, I’m not going to tell you that. (laughter) But it’s a very fair question. We covered a lot of issues systematically and the way we work is to be in constant touch, either on the phone, or at meetings and we go through…I’ll give you the story of how we work productively. Do you remember right after the Russian invasion on August 19th, there was an emergency NATO Ministerial Meeting? And I remember talking to the Turks in the corridor, and we were discussing the south Caucasus generally, and we didn’t have time for a formal meeting and it was a very intense discussion. We both came to the same conclusion independently which is; ‘no we’ve got to try to resolve some of these problems, we can’t let them sit, and this is a dangerous moment.’ And it was a very fast conversation, and you can only do that if you really understand each other. That was good, I like working with Turkish diplomats. They are just skilled. Faruk Logoglu and Nabi Sensoy are very skilled, capable people. They actually know how Washington works pretty well, too, which is useful. A good ambassador can really work the system, but you don’t mind because you know that they are doing it in a professional way. And that’s their job. They can operate well.
Media: Thanks to Ambassador Wilson, the things are better now, after one year.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Oh man, you are right about that and I can tell you.
Ambassador Wilson: Thanks to the President of the United States.
Assistant Secretary Fried: Ross is right, President Bush and Prime Minister Erdogan made this decision and President Bush basically said’ I’m in charge, we’re going to do this, enough is enough. The PKK are terrorists, we are going after them, we are going to work with Turkey, make it happen.’ He did so because your Prime Minister was pretty clear about the problem. It’s a good relationship. You know, they’ve gone through a lot together, they met in the fall of 2002. This is very tough stuff, I remember March 2003, we’ve been through a lot and it was rough. Okay? But here we are. It has gotten better in a year. It’s a relief.
Moderator: On that positive note, let’s end it here.
I’m off to Brussels to the Georgia Donor’s Conference. Turkey will be there, be represented there and I will probably have a chance for some of these side corridor conversations, although it is not an emergency (inaudible). Thank you all.